<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Zooko Wilcox-O'Hearn <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:zooko@zooko.com">zooko@zooko.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Dear Jody:<br>
<br>
Thank you very much for the report from the field! It is useful to<br>
get overall gestalt reports in order to track our progress and to set<br>
expectations for other users. Hearing reports like this from actual<br>
users who have actual expericen is invaluable.<br>
<br>
In addition, you could contribute even more value by adding details<br>
which are specific enough that we could see how to fix them, i.e. new<br>
issue tickets. I'll quote some of your message and ask for more<br>
specifics.<br>
<br>
On Monday, 2010-02-01, at 9:58 , Jody Harris wrote:<br>
<br>
> - It's hard to get it up and running<br>
<br>
But the people you cite did get it up and running but subsequently<br>
stopped using it, right? Was it perhaps sort of left-over resentment<br>
from the getting started part that contributed to them giving up? (I<br>
know I'm that way about software -- if it is hard to install then I<br>
feel like it owes me one and it has to make up for it once I get it<br>
installed. :-)) Or was it just that they didn't find it sufficiently<br>
useful?<br>
<div class="im"><br></div></blockquote><div>They did get it up and running, but then were unable to understand the interface. (more on this below)</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class="im">
> - Creating directories and files via the WUI makes keeping track<br>
> of capabilities a tedious manual exercise in futility.<br>
<br>
Did they use bookmarks? I find bookmarks (in my web browsers, I mean)<br>
to be pretty easy. What could we change to reduce this problem?<br>
<br></div></blockquote><div>"Bookmarks? What the heck? You mean I have to bookmark my files to get back to them?"</div><div><br></div><div>You use bookmarks because you understand that the system does not offer you another way of keeping track of files created through the WUI. As a new initiate to Tahoe, I am viewing Tahoe as a file repository. I put something in. I come back later to get something out. When I make a deposit in a bank, I don't have to keep the transaction number in order to withdraw that money later. When I put milk in a glass, I don't have to use a unique, randomly generated key to get it back out. When I put a file on my hard drive, I go back to where I stored it to get it back.</div>
<div><br></div><div>For most users, bookmarks are a work-around (for something they will see as badly broken), not an interface.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class="im">
</div>> - Using the CLI is arcane, mysterious and cryptic.<br>
<br>
If you can provide some more specifics, now would probably be a good<br>
time to do so, as David-Sarah has assigned a bunch of usability<br>
tickets to themselves including CLI tickets: <a href="http://allmydata.org/" target="_blank">http://allmydata.org/</a><br>
trac/tahoe/query?status=%21closed&owner=davidsarah<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>"You mean I have to TYPE stuff in the DOS window? Oooooo! Yuck!"</div><div><br></div><div>These guys are even experienced computer users. I kid you not! Granted, they are all in their late 20's to early 30's, but they have never known the command line in an intimate way. </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
> - There should be a FUSE-like gateway through my file manager<br>
<br>
I heartily agree! Volunteers needed! Here are the related tickets:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe/query?status=%" target="_blank">http://allmydata.org/trac/tahoe/query?status=%</a><br>
21closed&order=priority&keywords=%7Efuse<br>
<br>
François and David-Sarah have both contribued small patches to the<br>
FUSE code recently. If any readers want to jump in and make a proper<br>
read-write FUSE plugin, feel free to post to this list about it.<br>
<br>
There are at least a couple of other strategies that might have even<br>
better results than a FUSE plugin for you. What file manager do you<br>
use? Perhaps Tahoe-LAFS could be integrated directly into that<br>
filemanager. Or perhaps the existing read-write ftp plugin would<br>
satisfy.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It think it has to be transparent to the desktop. I use Gnome as my desktop now, but I still greatly prefer and use KDE's Dolphin file manger. FTP can be easily attached to the standard set of file managers, after which, it can be used _mostly_ like a local FS. Something that depended on Nautilus would be a huge disappointment to me because I don't care for Nautilus. (Not that that would keep me from using it.) </div>
<div><br></div><div>Supporting each file manager would seem to be a lot more work than a more generic interface... but I understand that there are many trade-offs to be made.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class="im"><br>
> - Once I create items, I have no way to browser them (see above)<br>
<br>
Hrm, because you don't have a sufficiently convenient way to keep<br>
track of the caps to them, you mean? What if you were to keep a<br>
bookmark to a certain directory and link everything you create into<br>
that directory (or into subdirectory which are linked into that<br>
directory, etc.). Would that satisfy? That's what I've been doing,<br>
e.g.: <a href="http://testgrid.allmydata.org:3567/uri/URI%3ADIR2-RO%" target="_blank">http://testgrid.allmydata.org:3567/uri/URI%3ADIR2-RO%</a><br>
3Au6hxf6v5mu6viibkppkpd7ygu4%<br>
3Am54njuevyfxpma4dzklipej3g4kh24l2tgt6l52foaqwzdhzsw3a/<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Users expect a / directory in a filesystem. Tahoe isn't a filesystem, but it does things a filesystem does (store and retrieve files). They expect to interact with it like a filesystem because they see it as a filesystem.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I don't have these problems because I looked at what tahoe was doing, and I thought, "Oh. Okay." and I changed my methods to be compatible with tahoe. Most people won't bother. If it doesn't act (at some level) the way they _perceive_ that it _should_ act, then it is "broken."</div>
<div><br></div><div>I'll post some more comments to this thread from my users later.</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class="im">
<br>
</div>> - I don't have time to read manuals<br>
> - I only have [15 minutes a week] to work on this project<br>
<br>
Yeah, too little time. I have this problem too! ;-)<br></blockquote><div> </div><div>I've discovered that I have an awful lot of time since I turned off the television. </div><div><br></div><div>Jody</div></div><br>