[volunteergrid2-l] Foot-dragging

Johannes Nix johannes.nix at gmx.net
Sun Feb 26 20:22:14 UTC 2012 

Hello,

> On 2/24/2012 11:42 AM, Shawn Willden wrote:
> > So, if I'm understanding your concern, you're fearful that you
> > might be held responsible if one of the other users of the VG2 grid
> > were to store illegal materials in the grid and, therefore, on your
> > computer?

just to add a few bits to the discussion:

In Germany, there have been two interesting press releases around
the topic. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find
links to English translations so far, but I think
it's interesting for enough people:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,817499,00.html

- Germany's secret services have examined 37 Million e-mails
in the last year because of the occurrence of suspicious key 
words, five times as much as in the year before.

http://www.fr-online.de/politik/datensicherheit-im-internet-verfassungsgericht-schraenkt--datensammelwut-ein,1472596,11702740.html?google_editors_picks=true

- The German supreme court has decided that Internet
service provides can give out user identities and 
passwords to investigators only after a 
judge's decision. So far, this happened without
such a permit.

From the above I'd guess that our mail exchange
is already being read with some attention.


> > Further, there's a good argument to be made that what you store
> > isn't even "information".  It is encrypted data and you don't have
> > the key. Assuming the data is not decryptable without the key, it
> > can be argued that key + data == information, but key without data
> > is simply noise. Strengthening this argument is the fact that you

I think this point is right. The same argumentation
would use all the service providers like dropbox and the like.
However, I think they might experience some pressure
to give user passwords out, see above.


Another topic is perhaps more interesting: Tahoe grids are
not exactly made for a publication, but they can
be used for this aim, if the publisher gives out
the dircaps for this data.

Now, before any publication there is generally
assumed that there is no responsibility of
someone running a server without knowing the content.
But let's assume somebody uses a grid to store and share
something - could be a military secret, a report
on a war crime, gay literature which is illegal
in Iran but not elsewhere, a video which is joking
about the king of Thailand. Now, authorities
could learn about the content and demand that the 
offending content is withdrawn
from the net. But with a system like tahoe this
is very hard to achieve. It is a facet of the
general problem that nowadays it is easy to
distribute information but impossible to 
get the cat into the sack again.

I can also imagine situations in which it is
desirable for some to support content which is not
wanted everywhere. For example, there is the
Avaaz network of activist which concentrates
mostly on human rights and struggles for basic
civil rights. This organisation has certainly
members which need to protect their identity and
could use such a grid in a meaningful way.

What would be the policy here?

I think a good agreement would be not to publish things
which could bring other owners of the grid
into trouble. But if there is a consensual
agreement of the nodes owners to support some
shared content, I think this could be possible.

I think it could be beneficial to talk about
values, maybe a basic set of ethic principles that
people involved here agree to. For example, basic
principles might include:

- respect for privacy
- don't get other people in trouble of your behalf
- consider to help people which want and need help
- try to contribute to freedom and transparency in
  public matters


Johannes












Am Fri, 24 Feb 2012 17:46:19 -0700
schrieb Brad Rupp <bradrupp at gmail.com>:

> On 2/24/2012 11:42 AM, Shawn Willden wrote:
> > So, if I'm understanding your concern, you're fearful that you
> > might be held responsible if one of the other users of the VG2 grid
> > were to store illegal materials in the grid and, therefore, on your
> > computer?
> >
> > I don't think that's a realistic concern, but you have to make the
> > decision for yourself.
> >
> > I think there may be one inaccuracy in your thinking which I can
> > point out:  ISPs are not considered common carriers.  In fact
> > they've fought hard to avoid that classification, because it brings
> > regulation along with protection from responsibility.
> >
> > Since Comcast et al are not held responsible for, say, the kiddie
> > porn that flows over their networks, I don't think you have to have
> > worry. Particularly since it is provable (in the legal sense and
> > almost in the mathematical sense) that you can have no knowledge of
> > the content others store on your machine, I can't see how any court
> > could attempt to hold you responsible.  ISPs actually have the
> > ability to see much of what they transport.  You don't.
> >
> > Further, there's a good argument to be made that what you store
> > isn't even "information".  It is encrypted data and you don't have
> > the key. Assuming the data is not decryptable without the key, it
> > can be argued that key + data == information, but key without data
> > is simply noise. Strengthening this argument is the fact that you
> > don't even hold all of the parts needed to assemble the encrypted
> > file.  Without the shares that have been distributed to other
> > machines, you don't even have enough information to be able to
> > reconstruct the encrypted file... which you couldn't decrypt anyway.
> 
> Shawn hit the nail on the head.  Even if kiddie porn is stored to the 
> grid, what you have is not kiddie porn.  You have a chunk of
> something. As Shawn mentions, it is simply noise.  Remember, I am not
> a lawyer...
> 
> >
> > None of that would be a strong defense if the court could argue
> > that you should have known that you were storing illicit
> > information.  But the purpose of this grid isn't to skirt laws
> > restricting kiddie porn, the purpose of this grid is provide
> > highly-reliable off-site backups of normal data.  I can certainly
> > assure you that none of the data I store in the grid is illegal.
> >
> > Perhaps one thing we could do is to state as a formal policy of the
> > grid that it is not to be used for storing any data which the owner
> > knows, or should know, is illegal in his or her jurisdiction.
> 
> I agree.  That is a good idea.
> 
> >
> > Oh, and as for GMail... if you're concerned about e-mail snooping
> > for this mailing list, the list archives are a bigger concern.  The
> > government wouldn't even need a warrant:  They could just sign up
> > for membership and have access to the full text of everything
> > anyone has posted here.  In general, any expectations of secrecy on
> > unencrypted e-mail are foolish, but our conversations here are
> > effectively conducted in public.
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Ted Rolle Jr. <stercor at gmail.com
> > <mailto:stercor at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     I've been dragging my feet implementing Tahoe-LAFS.
> >     As one who lived through the McCarthy era, and the expanded
> > powers that the government has to view and track private citizens,
> > I don't want to be prosecuted by the government.  I don't have the
> > resources to be in this fight.
> >     And I don't believe for one minute that it's directed toward
> > te..or..ts. GMail routinely reads mail for 'targeted advertising'.
> > I can think of other reasons, too.
> >
> >     Where does this lead?  I don't know.
> >     Perhaps someone here can put my concerns to rest.
> >     The gov decides who is and is not a 'common carrier' --- i.e.
> > not responsible for the traffic the network carries.
> >     And in today's climate, people are guilty until proven innocent.
> >
> >     Ted
> >
> >     --
> >     GPG/PGP public key: B07F9AAE
> >
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     volunteergrid2-l mailing list
> >     volunteergrid2-l at tahoe-lafs.org
> > <mailto:volunteergrid2-l at tahoe-lafs.org>
> > http://tahoe-lafs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volunteergrid2-l
> > http://bigpig.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WebHome
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shawn
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > volunteergrid2-l mailing list
> > volunteergrid2-l at tahoe-lafs.org
> > http://tahoe-lafs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volunteergrid2-l
> > http://bigpig.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WebHome
> _______________________________________________
> volunteergrid2-l mailing list
> volunteergrid2-l at tahoe-lafs.org
> http://tahoe-lafs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volunteergrid2-l
> http://bigpig.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WebHome

More information about the volunteergrid2-l mailing list